Barbara Wurm (BW): We are very happy, Marie, that you are back at the Forum with your film SCENARIO. What brought you to the model town of Schnöggersburg?
Marie Wilke (MW): I visited this military training area for the first time in 2015. I discovered it while shooting my film CIVIL SERVANTS (STAATSDIENER) [2015]. We wanted to visit a protagonist in Saxony-Anhalt, drove there, and I wondered what this huge area was without any houses. It was completely empty. You almost never see anything like that in Germany. That's when I first noticed it, then I did some research and saw that this military model town called Schnöggersburg had been built there. I found that really exciting because there was a lot of controversy surrounding it. People asked, ‘Why do we need a model town like that for training? What wars are we training for?’ At the time, a site like that was completely unique in Germany and also in Europe. I drove there, talked to people, did a bit of research, and even filmed a little bit. But then I was told in no uncertain terms that it couldn't be financed. There was no hook and no interest. But I was already interested in these topics back then: What is Germany's stance on the military, war, and the Bundeswehr, especially against the backdrop of Germany's past? What are we doing there and why? Besides, this place is steeped in history. I never wanted to give up on the project. I then met [producer] Heino Deckert from Ma.ja.de. and told him about it—he found it exciting right away. At that point, there were completely new people at this military training area; a generational change had taken place. We had to reestablish contact, and so we started filming in 2023.
Carolin Weidner (CW): Interest in such topics has probably just increased in recent years, right? The keyword is ‘Zeitenwende’, ‘turning point’, which also comes up in the film.
MW: That's an assumption, of course, because I don't know for sure. But I suppose so, because it didn't seem possible to get funding back then, and now that the situation has changed, there was more interest. The funding also came together pretty quickly.
CW: Was it difficult to gain access to the Bundeswehr for the shoot?
MW: That was quite a stroke of luck. At the military training area, I met the press officer who is responsible for public relations, and he was immediately very open. And so was the colonel who is currently the commander there. But it did take a few months. I kept going back there, presented a concept, talked to them, and above all made it clear that I was doing this completely independently and would not allow myself to be influenced. I said that from the very beginning.
[I made] it clear that I was doing this completely independently and would not allow myself to be influenced.
CW: Did they watch your films beforehand?
MW: Yes, I thought that was great. The press officer wanted to watch my films and did so. I was very excited. He then said he found it interesting.
BW: And what were the arrangements like during filming? Did you have to request certain things? Were there even plans that were tailored to you?
MW: There is already an annual plan at the combat training center on this military training area. So every day is already fixed. We went through this annual plan and I said what interested me, where I would like to be. So no, they didn't tailor it to us. But there were no restrictions in that sense. Once they had a kind of debriefing after a military exercise, which specifically dealt with military equipment that is secret and cannot be reported on. We weren't there for that.
CW: The whole area seems incredibly large. Was there a specific idea to measure it cinematically, also with regard to the overlapping of different temporal dimensions? I'm thinking, for example, of the Hillersleben Army Testing Center [where weapons were tested during the Nazi era].
MW: That was my concept from the beginning. The framework was always this place, this location.
CW: Schnöggersburg, or the entire area?
MW: The whole place, which is 30 kilometers long, and Schnöggersburg is in the far north, but there are many other places. That was my idea from the beginning: we explore this place. And in the finished film, that became less prominent than I had originally planned. During editing, I realized that the place tells its own story through what we see. It didn't need to be shown anymore; it was actually in the scenes.
CW: How long did you shoot and in how many stages?
MW: We were there for a year, between December '23 and December '24, on and off. That was almost 40 days of shooting. Sometimes it was just one day, sometimes four days.
BW: You show the elements of the institution and, as you just described, basically film all the activities. But there is no scene where you look behind the scenes, where you deal with the ideologies or issues behind it. Was that a conscious decision?
MW: I notice that, as a filmmaker, I'm most interested in moments that might have something theatrical about them. Where people represent themselves, show themselves. I can observe so much there, the language, how someone moves. And, of course, I often see a little more than what they want to show, because you can also see the intention behind it. That interests me more than an investigative approach. Observing what I am allowed to see also involves respect for the person. These are people who are participating, and we have an agreement. In summary, I am interested in self-representation, presentation or even simulation, the game, where reality sometimes becomes almost more tangible for me than when I look behind the scenes.
[I'm interested in] the presentation or simulation, the game, where reality sometimes becomes almost more tangible to me than when I look behind the scenes.
BW: I meant it a little differently. Your film addresses the theme of coming to terms with the past, the present, and the future. And I could imagine that this kind of thinking is also found in conversations between Bundeswehr personnel: How do you design a training lesson? What could be the pitfalls?
MW: I asked about such situations. For example, whether there is a meeting with an architect to discuss how this model city should be renovated or built. But there simply wasn't one. I've noticed this time and again in institutions, and also in the Bundeswehr: there isn't much negotiation. On the other hand, the question of ‘How does the Bundeswehr's self-representation come about’ was not my topic either.
CW: To me, SCENARIO seems a bit like a synthesis of your films CIVIL SERVANTS and AGGREGATE [2018]. While the former also focuses on an institution, AGGREGATE strongly captures the mood of the time around 2015, with Pegida, among other things. Now there is a new, big mood shift, and you make that visible by means of the Bundeswehr.
MW: Okay, that's very interesting that you felt that way. I planned AGGREGATE at a time when Pegida wasn't that strong yet. The whole strand about right-wing extremism wasn't part of the original intention. It's a bit similar with SCENARIO. Both are films in which the times play a prominent role. In which a radical change is taking place. Filming the Bundeswehr at a time when they are asking themselves questions like ‘How should we present ourselves? How should we open up? How should we show ourselves? What are we actually doing here?’, when there is a lot of negotiation and scrutiny, is of course exciting. Perhaps there is greater openness at times like these because people want to show themselves.
CW: In CIVIL SERVANTS, the tension arose because your film follows the journey of aspiring police officers—from the classroom to the field. SCENARIO, on the other hand, generates a lot of tension from an uncertain future scenario that hangs over everything. This ‘what if?’ Did you already feel that way while filming?
MW: Yes, while filming, I often had real images of war in my head. There is always a connection to current events or to what could be, and that is also created in the simulations. But while filming, I also have to take a broader view, looking at the past, the present, and the future. It's not just about what I see in front of me, but the context in which I see it. That's my perspective when filming.
It's not just about what I see in front of me, but the context in which I see it. That's my perspective when filming.
CW: Did you consider focusing on individual protagonists?
MW: I realized pretty quickly that I didn't want to do that and that I was more interested in the bigger picture. With protagonists, it quickly becomes too individual.
BW: I'd like to go back to the press officer. Can you guess what convinced him to give you permission to film?
MW: Basically, I try to put myself in people's shoes. I ask myself: What do they get out of letting me in? I offer my independent perspective, which is completely different from a Bundeswehr promotional video. I'm very honest about that. The Bundeswehr and the police are not private companies, but parts of society. So they should also have a certain openness. In a way, I expect that and I think it's right. And in this case, I was actually lucky that they saw it the same way.
BW: We were already at the point where your film captures a turning point. It deals with issues of militarization and national defense. The whole topic is incredibly diverse, and in SCENARIO there are no vehement opponents. Is the model city sometimes confronted with protest?
MW: No. There used to be a lot of protests before the war in Ukraine, when it was being built. They always had to explain why they were spending millions to build a subway. They don't have to do that anymore. That has changed. I was interested in this place even before the war in Ukraine; it's not a current interest. By going to this place in the film, I wanted to make everything very strange to me again, to view war almost as a phenomenon. When I see this ammunition museum, the absurdity of it. I recognize in it an overarching absurdity, what war actually is. I want to go even deeper into this and look at it from a larger, more foreign perspective.
By going to this place in the film, I wanted to make everything very strange to me again, to view war almost as a phenomenon.
CW: Do you satisfy your urge to encounter things in a new or foreign way sufficiently during filming, and then it just needs to be edited? Or do you recognize a lot more later in the editing room?
MW: A lot still happens for me during editing. I start shooting and have the threads of what interests me pretty clearly in my head. But I still always think: Will this even be a film? I'm very, very open to not limiting myself when shooting. A lot happens again during editing, because of course you see what you've shot, what emerges, what stands out when you condense things, what threads form that you didn't see before. The process is actually continuous, from beginning to end.
CW: Since CIVIL SERVANTS, you've also been working with a permanent team. You work on the editing together with Jan Soldat, Alexander Gheorghiu is behind the camera. What do you appreciate about working together?
MW: Jan and I sit together at the editing table and make decisions on a completely equal footing. I worked at the Film University in Babelsberg and Jan was a student there, so we've known each other for a long time and have also been connected professionally for a long time. And I feel that I share a kind of discipline with my team, including Alexander, when it comes to filming. We also take respect for people very seriously. It's a way of dealing with places and people that I appreciate. What Jan and I also share is that we're perhaps not so interested in judging, but more in observing.
BW: Could you give us one or two examples of where you gained real insight while working on the film?
MW: There were so many little things. That's always the case for me when I immerse myself in worlds I don't know. I knew nothing about the military or how to practice warfare, how incredibly important communication is, for example, and how complicated it is. I didn't realize that before. I also didn't know how the Bundeswehr teaches history to recruits. That they clearly state that the Wehrmacht is not part of our identity. I also didn't know that the Bundeswehr have their own concept of what morality is and how to act in accordance with it. Or that they say: ‘Every soldier must always check whether what they are doing is lawful or not.’
I didn't know that the Bundeswehr has its own concept of what morality is and how to act in accordance with it.
BW: For me, it was actually the moment when it became clear what an immense task has to be communicated. That, despite minute procedures and processes, such as the flag-folding scene, in the end you need someone who is willing to sacrifice their life. That touched me.
MW: For me, this sober scene with the folding of the flag is strongly connected to a kind of pathos that is somehow necessary: Why should we risk our lives here? Even in Germany, you have to create something, although pathos is rather foreign to Germans. This makes the flag almost sacred, and you have to say that we are defending our democracy here. There has to be a reason. And I found it very exciting to see how this is conveyed, especially in Germany. At the same time, the Bundeswehr’s own promotional videos use an incredible amount of pathos, with exuberant music and emotions.
CW: The film ends with particularly young people. Why did you want to do that?
MW: For me, it was more of an arc: the press officer comes back with a tour and they are 14 or so, they are interns, and they see everything with new eyes and it goes back to this model city. That's not a commentary. The fact that they are young people was not decisive for me.
CW: Would you say that over time you have developed your own style or approach? I certainly feel that way, and I mean it as a compliment. How do you see it?
MW: Style is always a difficult word. I want to deal with something with a documentary approach, and finding the form is the task at hand. For example, I've also made a television series that is completely different because it was intended for the small screen, for television. I'm more interested in finding what interests me. The subsequent search for form, even during filming, is the work for me.
