Das Interview wurde auf Englisch geführt.
Jutta Doberstein (JD): Welcome Kevin, You have two fans here – with questions. THE MOTHS & THE FLAME. The title of your film quotes a poem by Farid ud-Din Attar [a medieval Persian poet and mystic]. How did you come across his work? How much is this film about a religious experience for you?
Kevin Contento (KC): This is the third film that takes something from his work: ‘Conference of the Birds’. I discovered it when I took religious studies in my undergrad at the University of Central Florida, and I came across this Iranian-American scholar, Seyyed Hossein Nasr. He had written a book called ‘Man and Nature’, where he suggests solutions for the ecological crisis based on religious ideas, especially those found in Sufi poetry. Here, the relationship with nature is one's relationship with God and we are its stewards. It's things that you see also in Christianity. As I dug deeper into Sufism and poetry I fell in love with the parable ‘Conference of the Birds’. The allegory reminded me of Dante's ‘Inferno’. But Dante Alighieri's ‘The Divine Comedy’ is rooted in Christian symbolism. ‘Conference of the Birds’ is rooted completely in Islam. And I love the use of the language, the symbolism, the stories they tell. It was incredible to me to think it was a 12th century text. THE MOTHS & THE FLAME for me is a wish for a religious experience. But at the same time the reality of the world is so materialistic. I wondered how does the concrete reflect this sort of esoteric world – or the symbolic world? THE MOTHS & THE FLAME is a story of dedication. I was becoming a father. I was watching young men become fathers. So to me, it felt like this perfect marriage of these two ideas, the dedication it takes to raise children is almost an annihilation of oneself. I think there's always variations to it, and I think that's what I like to show.
Christiane Büchner (CB): Now we are already in the poetic realm of your film. When I watched your film, I was sure that you live in this neighborhood, now I learned you don't. Maybe you can tell us more about how you met and how long the way has been already that you have gone with the men shown in this film.
KC: I first met them in 2017, when I had to make a short film to graduate. I grew up in a town south of theirs and always loved the sugar cane fields, had spent some time photographing them. But it's difficult to meet people in small communities and the sugar business in Florida is a billion dollar industry. There is a lot of: ‘Who is this person with a camera? They're probably gonna make us look bad.’ Eventually I found an inroad in this small town called Pahokee. The very first person I met is still in my life. Malik, the father of Maliyah and Malik Jr. I was looking for young men who were in high school, who would do rabbit hunting. There's a lot of folklore that the rabbit hunters are the best football players, that they run without shoes. Some of it is sort of true, there is pride and storytelling. So Malik was stocking the shelves and I go: ‘Hey man, I'm looking for rabbit hunters. Do you know anybody?’ And he goes: ‘Oh, I'm a rabbit hunter. Look, look at my picture.’ And he was so happy. ‘Look, look, look at all the stuff I just caught. This is my dog, I work here.’ And so we just started a conversation: ‘Hey, can I go out with you and take pictures? I'll meet you, whatever you want to do.’ And little by little, we would go out together. Then we shot something. Then I didn't see him for some time. And then I met the other boys, Jean, who's for me the most internal character that I've ever met as a director. He's the boy, man now, who picks up the cocoon at the beginning. Over the last couple of years we've made several movies together and in the meantime, this friendship evolves. When they were in high school, I felt like a camp counselor. I would pick up five boys excited to leave town. They would play video games, eat pizza, we would go watch a movie, make a movie, shoot some scenes for two, three days, and then I'd drop them off and go back to my regular schedule. And that was our relationship over the years.
When they were in high school, I felt like a camp counselor. I would pick up five boys excited to leave town.
At a certain point, they grew up. And now a lot of them are fathers and I'm a father myself. Some of them have moved away. So yeah, I live in Chicago right now. But since 2017, we've been in each other's lives. So it's very special.
JD: Following up on that, it feels like the film is in part autobiographical. Because you and Malik sort of have grown up together – or in parallel lines. And you both had kids roughly at the same time.
KC: Yeah, at the birthday party scene where Malik is with his daughter, my wife and daughter are there, too. The first time my daughter started to walk was at Maliyah's birthday. So there is this kind of fraternity. Malik’s always been an amazingly kind, open individual. We all go through a lot, but there's something – he's been steadfast. He's always appreciated our friendship and I really am grateful for that.
JD: You did not include the mothers.
KC: Because my relationship was never based with any of the mothers. I've known Jean and Malik so long that I've met all their mom figures, be it grandma or the mom. I remember when I met Jean, I introduced myself to his mom, to his sister. I think there's been a wall of respect where I feel like they don't want to be on camera, but Jean and Malik do. I wanted to include Boleg’s partner, who's pregnant, but when I would bring it up it was: ‘Oh, I don't know’. I felt: Okay, it's not welcome and I'll just drop it – out of respect and when I think about it, my relationship really is with the men. So that became the clear perspective of the story – their perspective. Which is the one that I still find beautiful, you know?
CB: We see many films talking about motherhood in our submissions, but fatherhood is very rare or … not so detailed. You show us different men with their kids, with their ideas of being a father in an everyday situation. It's lovely to watch them and it's very interesting why and how they do things, how it feels. There is an enormous amount of trust between you and your protagonists, but it's also that you seem to know very well what you want to show. Maybe you can tell us something about finding certain scenes or developing them with your protagonists?
KC: Yeah, that's a great question. Now with a three-year-old and a two-year-old, I look at this project and I go: ‘Fatherhood is so tough’. I don't think that's the movie I wanted to make – about it being hard. I knew that I didn't want to dramatize fatherhood or their lives because their lives were not dramatic in that Hollywood sense. This is a small rural town in Florida. Life has a pace to it, especially in summer you spend it inside and life is those daily moments. Trying to create extra drama is not necessary.
I knew that I didn't want to dramatize fatherhood or their lives because their lives were not dramatic in that Hollywood sense.
At the same time, when we talk about black fathers in the United States, I think too often it can become traumatic, this stereotype of black communities. I wanted verité. You’re a guest in this person's house, you're in a fixed point of view, but you can see everything, hear their conversations and participate in community events. I really try to not overstep my welcome, even though I've known them for many years. I've never been inside Jean's house. He always just bypasses it and I never push. With Malik it's different. He's allowed me in. And I’m not entitled to everything as a storyteller. Just because I have a camera, I don’t need to see every room and every drawer. If I can just have one space with the main person, then I'll stay there for hours, you know? That's what I like about that opening scene when Malik's daughter and all of them are in the living room. That to me is perfect. You're not quite sure of the relationships. But this is the dynamics. Seeing where everybody sleeps would have been unnecessary for this story. We just want to get a sense of them, sit with them. That's perfect, you know?
JD: I feel that respect goes further. You take them by their word. There are moments where one could ask: How are you going to provide for the family in the post plantation life you're living here? You don’t. Instead you give them the space for wanting to become the best version of themselves and to feel accepted. I found that incredibly moving. You let them be, while showing a world where it’s incredibly hard for them to live up to their aspirations.
KC: Willie, the older rabbit hunter, he is like the portent. We have to trust him at his word. Having known men from his generation and that kind of lifestyle in agriculture…. When he says, ‘I had a scholarship, but I messed that up’. I'm pretty sure there were probably a few mess-ups. But there's something about him wanting to be a father. The difficulties – I hope the younger boys are able to avoid them. Just to give you some insight, TJ – we see him and his daughter trick-or-treating – he's in prison now. None of their lives have been picture perfect. I admire them because they've done so much and still want to do so much. I love to give them that space. That's what I would love for somebody to walk away with. To not judge them. I don’t want them to feel like they're on the cusp of not having anything. It's almost like they're on the cusp of having it all, and they're in a unique opportunity, I'm hopeful that they'll have that ability. And those opportunities. So that's a good feeling, I think.
I admire them because they've done so much and still want to do so much.
CB: I think it works because the relationships are treated so delicately. Your relationship to the protagonists, but also their relationship to their children. I just follow them. And I think this is why it's possible. And maybe working with poetry is also part of it – that you meet in a poetic way where they can exist, where you can communicate through poetry. How did you work with them, with the literature, with the poetry?
KC: The book always fascinated me and I wanted to hear their voices read it. At the beginning, it was a very imposed idea of: ‘Hey, I want you to read this. Let me record your voice reading this’. And these guys are going: ‘Why?’ But I think it became therapeutic. There's something so special about sitting together, reading poetry. That's like insane to me, especially in rural Florida. There's something about their world that I've associated with the ‘Conference of the Birds’. It works for a reason. These worlds talk to each other in a weird way. Just the act of making films together over the years became an escape for us. During the pandemic we would meet up every month – it was like a ritual. We would find a spot, shoot a scene, and then go into town, for Pizza Hut or something. On Sunday we would watch football. And I was like: ‘Can we do it again in two months?’ And they're like: ‘Yeah, cool. I’m not doing anything else. So come on over.’
JD: Your narration reminded me of the US series: ‘Friday Night Lights’ - life in a classical football small town. You introduce small town lives, the trailers and then you spin the relationship to nature. Can you elaborate a bit on your choices? About the editing process?
KC: I was trying to avoid as much middle of the day shooting outside as possible. There's a lot of magic hour or some sunrise filming, when scenery and landscape look most beautiful… The middle of the day is so harsh in Florida, and I think with the poem, it didn't speak as well to the language of that world. In the middle of the day, I would try to be inside with the family. There's this idea called ‘Axis mundi’. [Mircea] Eliade, a religious scholar, thinks that all religions have a center that everything revolves around. It's always interesting to go into someone's life and try to explore: What is the center? And here it was the children. So the camera should just stay there. And we see all the elements revolving around them. And I think visually we can always go back to what keeps us in contact with the real. The editing was about finding those moments. And that took a long time, two years. We didn't really record too much. The original plan was to do it in 12 shots. Of course it didn't work like that. Considering the relationship with these children, the fathers and father figures, I asked: ‘How do we drop into a moment and then disappear? How do we let the poem sort of fill in the gaps and then let life continue?’ I say though, that it didn't come together until the score.
CB: Do you want to tell us something about the score?
KC: Oh yeah, God, definitely. His name is 4th Disciple. He is a legend in the hip hop community having worked with many notably figures including members of the Wu Tang Clan. Recently he started to do film work with the filmmaker Khalik Allah on a film called BLACK MOTHER (2018). I was completely taken by the film and the score and eventually I reached out. It took me a year to figure out how to get 4th onboard but my prayers were answered and we were finally able to make it work. I don't have much experience working with composers and I don't really have that sort of vocabulary, but I really felt he was the perfect guy to do this. And just with my brief direction he started filling in the gaps. 99% was of his own input and sourcing. And I'm really proud of and grateful for his work because it elevates the film completely. It creates the feeling that I wanted the images to have. There’s this bubble that now holds the story together and it really has to do with his score. So he did an amazing job.
CB: You mentioned that you took the boys to Miami when they were still boys. Are you going to bring them to Berlin?
KC: I wish. I wish I could. But there is just not enough funds in the bank for any of that. It would also take a legal team to get their passports sorted. I involve them a lot in the domestic screenings. We visited the Slamdance Film Festival in 2019, that was their first time seeing snow. But it's become harder, I still have the credit card debt from that trip. So right now, it would be too much for all of us to go to Germany.
JD: I have one last question about one scene in your film that I'm curious about because it deviates from the others. You're filming a person who appears not quite in control, talking about God.
KC: Yeah, Troy. He's like a local staple. That evening, we went to the ‘Thriftway’ store, Jean used to work at, and were just hanging out. And then Troy is there and he's really gregarious. We asked to include him, and he's like: ‘Sure’. It's very basic. I'm like: ‘I’m making a project about fatherhood. If you have kids, maybe speak about what those responsibilities are.’ But I will say this, and this was not at all conscious, but when I think of Sufi poets – there's a lot written about the Sufi who's gone mad. And in that context that person is always looked at as the person who has the truest connection to the truth, they're sort of the wisest in this kind of universe. And it's funny because even when he's rambling, he talks about things that are quite metaphysical and he has this perspective that is all encapsulating. And I feel like he just knows who he is and where he's at. And there's something very powerful about that. I like that idea of somebody rambling or going for a long time, who knows something, who is experiencing something in life, because they're going to say something that will ring true. Like, let's include it, you know, let's find a way for it to fit. I'm curious: did it fit? The topic, the God talk? What did that make you think?
I like that idea of somebody rambling, who knows something, who is experiencing something in life, because they're going to say something that will ring true.
CB: It worked for me because it has its own logic. That's what you probably just described. What I liked was also the framing, just the image sitting outside. And yeah, for me it worked.
JD: It just made me wonder. Mostly I feel either you or the protagonists own a scene. I can trust that you have decided what the scene is going to be about and they just go for it. And here I felt a lack of control you allowed to be seen. I enjoyed that because it also reflects on the rest of the filmmaking process. That one moment of: Okay, this person is going off rail.
KC: Right, right, right.
JD: He’s out there with God and you let him ramble. But eventually I couldn’t follow anymore.
KC: Yeah, imagine transcribing that. I think I got 90% accuracy, so I'm pretty proud of myself. But there's … yeah, it was a challenge, but I think that the end result is cool. It works.
CB: Yes. Of course, it does! Thank you Kevin for this interview, for your film and all the deep insights it embodies and enfolds. We can’t wait to watch it in Berlin!
JD: And to welcome you for more conversation with the audience.
