Dieses Gespräch wurde auf Englisch geführt.
This conversation was translated in person by Yusuf Aslanyürek, the cinematographer and producer of the film.
Barbara Wurm (BW): Banu, welcome to Forum with your second feature length film. With your first, [THE PIGEON, 2018] you were in Berlinale Generation. So this is your second time at Berlinale. We are very proud to have you in our lineup. When did you start conceiving of the film and what made you tell this story?
Banu Sıvacı (BS): It actually started to come to life around the same time as THE PIGEON. Both of these films are like a compilation of my own stories. They are stories that go back and forth between the region where I was born, Adana, and the region where my mother's mother was born, Central Anatolia.
BW: Is the film related to autobiographical experience?
BS: Actually, I was inspired by a dramatic story from my family. There is such an unsolved crime in my family's past. This affected me greatly. Along with that, when you take into account the murders of women, which have now reached a very serious level in Turkey, I wanted to show the effect this has on a family. So, what was very important to me here was this: telling the story of the process of solving a murder when it happened arouses curiosity in people. At that point, people cannot fully understand what this murder does to those involved. But when we see what an unsolved crime does to a family 30 years later, that's when we feel the real pain.
Yusuf Aslanyürek (YA): I might add that especially in the middle of Turkey, where the family bonds are very strong and strict, they have their own code, not to talk, not to blame. That's why it's very complicated there. It's really hard to understand for a European, I can imagine, because you need to know the mentality in Turkey to understand why they are acting like this instead of solving the problem.
BW: Where does this code of not talking come from?
BS: Because those areas are small, the people involved didn't want to be associated with that crime all the time. So they closed the subject after a while. Since there was no clear evidence, they covered it up. It’s probably still the subject of constant gossip among them, but at some point it was forgotten. It was discussed back then, but since years have passed, the only person who hasn't forgotten in the film is Suna. Because that's how social memory works. It forgets events.
BW: [A cat appears during the zoom interview.] Let’s speak of the cat. What can you tell us about the relationship between people and animals in this film?
BS: For me, the animals in the film represent the hidden sides of the characters, as well as the sides they want to show. Ayhan, a very strong character in many ways, is constantly trying to dominate those large-horned buffaloes, always seeking to demonstrate his power. Lying on top of those powerful animals makes Ayhan feel a bit more confident – even though those around him don’t take him very seriously in his daily life. Suna, on the other hand, is a mysterious woman with boundaries, like a cat.
Anna Hoffmann (AH): It reminded me of Donald Trump’s clichéd remark about the childless cat lady which was supposed to belittle his political opponents.
BS: This character of Suna was written precisely to deceive people like Trump. I wanted to show that women who don't have children, who have chosen their own lives, who have chosen to be themselves, are actually very powerful characters who can influence those around them. Because in world cinema, as well as in Turkish cinema, women are usually the ones who are influenced. Yet here, all the characters, with their mistakes, their flaws, everything, influence each other. I wanted to show her independence, the strong character of Suna, because we have lots of women in Turkey who actually live like this.
I wanted to show that women who don't have children, who have chosen their own lives, who have chosen to be themselves, are actually very powerful characters
BW: For me, this film is a lot about Suna trying to be something between being a daughter, a wife, and a mother. At the same time, there is this plot about the village, the past, and the search for truth. Did it come together naturally, when you wrote the script?
BS: When I first started writing, the character was just returning home; that was what it was about. It was about her returning and confronting her family. Then I gradually added to it. I wanted to give the character a stronger reason, and as I said, femicides were increasing significantly in the country. It merged with my own family story. Then I thought about it layer by layer, slowly. Each year, a new layer was added. I usually go from the part to the whole. When writing a script, small pieces form first, then it moves towards the whole.
AH: I also see a third aspect that is the landscape. It is very real, but seemed to be such a perfect metaphor for the story.
BS: These are the landscapes of where I was born, just like in THE PIGEON, and also where my mother was born. I used to go there very often. I was there practically every summer. So, these are all places I gradually discovered and explored during my childhood. Since then, I've known about that deep sinkhole there. I prefer to refer to it as a lake. The lake is about 130 to 180 metres deep. If someone were to be thrown into that lake, divers wouldn't be able to retrieve them. That's why it became the setting for a mysterious, unsolvable murder for me. It also contributed to the film metaphorically. Drought is a very serious issue in the film, and there are cracks and this sinking area. It became a metaphor for all this social collapse and for the endless void inside Suna that she cannot fill. It also beautifully shows the rifts that come between her and her family, her past, between her and her brother.
AH: There's a lot of violence in the air, which is only hinted at. But there's also this uncertainty for Suna because she doesn't know what really happened. In the end, she says, I don't care any longer. What was her experience in order to come to that statement?
BS: She was so obsessed with that murder that there's a particular scene in the film where Seher, her sister-in-law, wakes her up when they talk in the hospital. Her transformation begins a little there. Seher tells her, ‘Okay, you lived with this pain, but Ayhan took care of everything here. You left. So some things come at a price.’ As this woman stubbornly pursues her goal, she slowly realises how she neglected her brother, who needed her. And then she actually gets the answer she was looking for. All she was seeking for the whole film, all her life, was this answer, more than justice. And when she found the answer, she let it go. And she becomes a real sister. And she understands that she must take care of her family We have our suspicions that Fidan may be her real sister. The film suggests something like that. So that's why I'm raising this suspicion now. So there's a new answer to this. She's coming back to life. She has a new motivation. It's saving Fidan and mending her relationship with Ayhan.
AH: Compared to THE PIGEON, you made a big step. Here we don’t have such a reduced location, not one main character only, but a whole ensemble, a family dynamic and a location that is wider. How would you perceive your move from the first film to the second?
BS: It was definitely a challenge. I had a dream about my first film on this subject. While working on a single character, I imagined that the second film could truly be an ensemble piece, and I knew how difficult that would be. Especially a family story like this. Therefore, the story was woven much more slowly than THE PIGEON. I had to think about many aspects of it much more deeply. But there was also an easier side to it. Sometimes certain characters could rest. Other characters could spend more time in the places and work during that time. That was the contribution. Because with THE PIGEON, Yusuf and I were alone, and we had to do everything ourselves.
BW: It's really great when the nephew comes in and when there are all these little side stories that are developed, not overdeveloped. I want to ask you, Yusuf, about the challenges for you as the cinematographer. What were the directorial challenges that Banu put on you as a cinematographer?
YA: Actually, there were small challenges. Like a lack of final budget and this sort of stuff. The kind of challenges every arthouse movie has to face. The real challenge here is trying to tell the story cinematographically, without words. You might notice that we had lots of scenes without dialogue, just images. We tried to tell a story with every picture we have. Banu and I got along really easily because she's a painter. She understands the frames. She understands how to build the picture. I'm trying to shoot every scene with some meaning in it, maybe with the frame, the composition, maybe with the light, maybe with the object in that frame. But I like to have maximum space without any dialogue in it. That was actually the only challenge: I had to build that atmosphere, that world. Everything else were simple challenges. How to put the light there, how to build this, and how to get that gear, technical stuff. It's not important for me. The important thing is to build the art of the film. That was the only challenge because it's a really deep story. When I read the script, I saw it like black pictures and really high contrast. When I spoke with Banu, she said she would like something in Rembrandt’s style. With lots of shadows, very high, deep contrast. This is how we did it, actually. I like the idea of the Rembrandt pictures. We made it yellow, and this responds to the synesthesia of the character. We tried to make the light reflect Suna’s character as much as we can.
We tried to make the light reflect Suna’s character as much as we can.
You remember the episode of the two women on the edge of the fountain sleeping head to head? I really wanted to take that at sunrise, with the harsh yellow and high contrast together. But we didn't have the time, sadly. We instead used some diffusions and to make them really soft together. Usually, Suna was always in contrast. This is the single episode where she was really soft because she really loved Fidan. Even the difficulties of the production, we turned somehow to express the character.
AH: As you mention the different shades of yellow, how do we have to understand it that she ‘hears’ the yellow?
BS: The idea to include synesthesia in the film, which Yusuf mentioned, existed at one time, but then had to be discarded. But we see that her past and the area she's in are completely yellow. Throughout the film, we see that her sister and Fidan also have yellow hair. Actually, we can think of hearing the soil, hearing the past, and sometimes Suna. She is a musician and experiences life by hearing. That's why I combined her sense of hearing with her past and colour; the title is a metaphorical title. When I was a child, I used to think I was looking at a yellow sea. It was yellow, that's all. An endless yellow stretched across that region. It's still like that.
AH: Music also plays an important role. She's a singer. We hear folk songs. But there's also film music. Was it especially composed for the film?
BS: Well, that she is a musician only comes up in the dialogue. When she arrives, she mentions that she's a musician. She talks about her recordings. I didn't want to specifically explain that she's a musician. The geologist character says to her, ‘I've listened to all your albums,’ and so on. So, I made her feel like being a musician was her profession in the film, and I only had her sing in one place. Because I didn't want her singing throughout the whole film. We really only hear Suna's voice once, near the fireplace, but we always know that she's a musician. But then Fidan asks, ‘Why are you singing?’ And she says, ‘So I don't remain indifferent.’ She wants to make a difference with her art. There was music composed specifically for the film, but all the songs are Turkish Folk songs.
BW: I would like to come back to a more general question, because you mentioned the social collapse. Does the perception of the social collapse of one's own society always start with observing one's own family, or is this case specific?
BS: Generally, there is a problem of forgetting and hiding things in Turkey. Forgetting is our biggest problem. I got really stuck on this film while writing it, I felt it. Forgetting, moving on with life. Daily life defeats things. It even defeats very big issues. We suddenly return to daily life. The buffalo is also very similar to our Turkish society. For example, if a buffalo is getting murdered, the one next to him will continue grazing. Like nothing happened.
Generally, there is a problem of forgetting and hiding things in Turkey. Forgetting is our biggest problem.
BW: I like the way that you reflect on the different layers of what it means to be brave or outspoken in the character of Suna.
BS: There’s one more layer I’d like to discuss. It relates to the feelings evoked by the villagers throughout the film, but rather than showing a group of villagers shouting and screaming, we just know that they have used up the water. We see this in the geologist scene, that’s why it is in the film. We know that they have used up all the water in the village. It’s an important statement about the current water crisis in the world, and this is happening, again, because of society's tendency to forget and ignore. Because society is stubbornly using water in the region recklessly. There have been landslides, and the village is collapsing because of this. Unfortunately, the lake we see in the film has now dried up. It is no longer there. Water, drought and the reckless use of water there by people, this consumption situation that people engage in without thinking of the heavy future they are creating, is, again, their forgetting. They forget their own thirst, let alone the death of the planet.
BW: One last question on the cast because it seems you are a real discoverer of important actors. Look at the career of Kemal Burak Alper [Note: lead actor of THE PIGEON], and now there are these two great actresses. How did you find them?
BS: I set myself a challenge with the character. I wanted the actress to be a real musician, to actually make music, to understand music. Even if we didn't show it much, I wanted us to feel her spirit in relation to music. That's why I went to see an opera singer I really admire in the country. I cast the opera singer I used to listen to in my art studio, Selva Erdener. That's how I found her. I've been listening to her for years. She's a soprano.
YA: It was her first time in front of a camera. I asked her if she liked it and she said, it was the hardest thing she had done in her life because the world of cinema and opera are so different. But on the set, she was cool. She was waiting all the time for the set to get ready. There were flies everywhere and it was a really terrible condition to work, but she was like the queen of the house. But she said the experiment is just amazing and she would like to be again in a film.
BW: Then there is also hope that we will see more of her on the buffalo's body, because that is one of the most beautiful images that you created with the human and the buffalo lying there.
YA: Theses creatures are just amazing. They're wild animals. I'm used to film cows, but it’s the first time we filmed buffaloes. They warned us that they are wild animals and that we had to be careful. But it's very interesting. We are both animal lovers and I think the animals feel somehow if a person likes animals or not, because they treated us like one of them. I carried a huge camera, twenty kilograms, on my shoulder, and I was between them. They always came, wouldn't you pet me a little bit? This was just amazing. I was trying to film and they stepped on my feet, trying to push me. Okay, I need a little bit patting. And they're very interesting. It was magic for me, an experience I will never forget.
BW: Would you like to add some last words?
BS: I'm very excited about coming to Berlin. I really can't describe how I feel right now. Because we'll be coming with a large group. Last time there were only two of us. I hope this time I'll be coming with more people who share this dream.
BW: Thank you so much for this talk. And thank you, Yusuf, for translating.
